Celsius 41.11

[Jonathan]

Hell, ask some of the soldiers in reserves and the guard. There is pseduo draft right now. There is something called a stop loss policy in effect. You can read about it at Usa Today

There is research being done about a limited draft of medical persons http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=33754

If things don't change, I don't care which politician says what, they are going to need boots on the ground. Its your guess where they are going to get them.

Personally, a big reason I'm voting Kerry is that I don't believe in rewarding failure. The planning and execution in Iraq was not what I would call competent.

Question: who has been fired for the mistakes on intelligence & planning?

Answer: No one.

I think we need a new perspective. When I hear from the Presidents mouth that he can't think of any real mistakes he's made, I'm stunned. Being resolute is one thing, being so stubborn that you can't see mistakes under your nose is another.

True about the draft part and the intelligence/planning parts.
But, about the "no mistakes" ~ do you honestly expect anybody
to stand in front of the cameras, in front how many many millions
of people, and list mistakes or even say "I made a mistake"?

John Kerry sure as hell wouldn't; I do admit Bush has failed
in several spots, but over all he is better than Kerry.

Four months in Vietnam is NOT "Combat experience" worthy
to be slung around as if the only reason you should get elected.

I understand, yes its actual experience of combat and so forth,
but only four months and he's running on it??

And why isn't he bringing up his past 20-odd years in the Senate?
Is he ashamed of something? It'd be a great compliment to military experience.

*edit ~ I know, several republicans I know are saying Bush has
simply "failed" and as much as they are "Against Kerry", "Bush has to go".

[Jim]

...but over all he is better than Kerry.

Such as...Please list in what way.

Four months in Vietnam is NOT "Combat experience" worthy
to be slung around as if the only reason you should get elected.

I understand, yes its actual experience of combat and so forth,
but only four months and he's running on it??

As opposed to a tour in the national guard in Texas & Alabama?
The Vice President, Secretary of Defense, deputy secretary, and whole list of others either have no actual military experience or no combat experience. I can provide you a complete list if you like, showing who served and who didn't.

And why isn't he bringing up his past 20-odd years in the Senate?
Is he ashamed of something? It'd be a great compliment to military experience.

If you're only going to get all you're news from Hannity, Rush, and Free republic, you do yourself a disservice. Kerry Actually has a pretty decent senate career. Its all public record, so even if he was embarrased about it, its there for everyone to see. Have you even bothered to check into to before making judgement?
Ever heard of the Kerry Commision? NO? Link
It was instrumental in bringing down Manuel Noriega. There are many others, if you bother to look.

Shall we take a look at the Presidents 20 year record? Beyond being a governor of Texas...a position of limited authority and power as compared to other states...he had very litte executive experience.

We haven't heard much about the vice presidents career in the legislature either. Did you even know he was in congress?

Lets see how great his record is:

• In 1988, Cheney voted to scrap a proposed national seven-day waiting period on handgun purchases.
• He voted against the Equal Rights Amendment for women, along with 146 other members of Congress in 1983.
• On Education, he consistently opposed funding of Head Start and voted against creating the Department of Education.
• he voted against legislation to require oil, chemical and other industries from making public records of emissions known to cause cancer, birth defects and other chronic diseases

There's more...including voting against "meals on wheels" for seniors.

In my opinion, the country is headed in the wrong direction and a change is warranted.

[Buddha]

Things are going to get worse before they get better. How much worse will depend on who is president.

I know there is one thing we can agree on, Iraq must be stablized before we pull out. Why does Iraq need to be stablized? Because a civil war in Iraq could spread throughout the Middle East not only killing millions but sending the entire global economy into a tail spin. I'm sure every nation knows this is a real threat to their own economies. The world runs on oil, $55 a barrel oil is bad for everyones economy, no oil flowing from the Middle East is a global economic disaster.

Now if that was all the next president had to worry about I think either Bush or Kerry or even one of the other candidates could be trusted to stablize Iraq. It's in our best interest. But it's not the only problem. The next president is going to face some real financial and economical problems.

The real deficit for this last fiscal year 2004 was $595,821,633,586.70 which is how much our national debt went up. Most economist will tell you when the deficit reaches $500 billion immediate action must be taken. Now if the Iraq war has cost us $143 billion what's the rest of that deficit? I know $200+ billion is the cash deficit of Social Security and Medicare. Yes, Social Security and Medicare are no longer paying for themselves and haven't been. That still leaves almost $250 billion in other spending which I have to admit I haven't a clue where it went? However, the next president will have to figure that out while faced with an economy which will most likely not even meet the conservative CBO (Congessional Budget Office) projections for growth. Cutting spending will only fix half the problem. No matter who is president, they are going to have to increase Federal revenue. That means raising taxes, everyones taxes. The next president will also need to assure Asia and Europe our Treasury Notes are worth more than the paper they are printed on. Otherwise, we're going to follow same road that ever other banana republics has taken.

If it was just Iraq this years election wouldn't be so important. However, the next president is going to be under great financial, economic and political pressure to pull out of Iraq. Which candidate do you think can take the pressure?

Don't forget to vote!

[Jonathan]

Such as...Please list in what way.

Well, when I turn on the TV I know his views are the same.
And don't say "all that flipflop stuff" is something the Republicans caused.
Because I've watched the news about him running from nearly
the beginning (thanks 2 mom/dad) ~ and he DOES change views!

Also, he doesn't support abortion, but I did read somewhere that
he supposedly does for rape cases (which I'm against).

To me, abortion is nothing but state-approved murder. Okay, so they/her
[parent(s)] can't support the child; why not wait it out and put the child
up for adoption? etc. It saves one life, and everyone is happy for the most part.

As opposed to a tour in the national guard in Texas & Alabama?
The Vice President, Secretary of Defense, deputy secretary, and whole list of others either have no actual military experience or no combat experience. I can provide you a complete list if you like, showing who served and who didn't.

Please do list; I'd like to know all in the Bush administrator who have
not served; can you provide the same for Kerry's camp?

If you're only going to get all you're news from Hannity, Rush, and Free republic, you do yourself a disservice.

Actually, except for Rush, never even heard of those three.

Kerry Actually has a pretty decent senate career. Its all public record, so even if he was embarrased about it, its there for everyone to see. Have you even bothered to check into to before making judgement?

Somewhat, but not nearly as much as I should.

Ever heard of the Kerry Commision? NO? Link
It was instrumental in bringing down Manuel Noriega. There are many others, if you bother to look.

I will look @ it, no didn't hear about it; see, why doesn't Kerry let
known that he's been on stuff like this?? Surely it'd sway voters!

Shall we take a look at the Presidents 20 year record? Beyond being a governor of Texas...a position of limited authority and power as compared to other states...he had very litte executive experience.

We haven't heard much about the vice presidents career in the legislature either. Did you even know he was in congress?

That one (Cheney) I knew.

Lets see how great his record is:

• In 1988, Cheney voted to scrap a proposed national seven-day waiting period on handgun purchases.
• He voted against the Equal Rights Amendment for women, along with 146 other members of Congress in 1983.
• On Education, he consistently opposed funding of Head Start and voted against creating the Department of Education.
• he voted against legislation to require oil, chemical and other industries from making public records of emissions known to cause cancer, birth defects and other chronic diseases

There's more...including voting against "meals on wheels" for seniors.

In my opinion, the country is headed in the wrong direction and a change is warranted.

Perhaps so; but I find Kerry's changing views to not
be something I want to put my fainth into.

Firsted started to run: We'll pull out of Iraq!
Now he's running: We'll get the support our troops need and stay in Iraq!

I remember it, if you think back to when he first
started running, you'll remember to.

[Jim]

Well, when I turn on the TV I know his views are the same.
And don't say "all that flipflop stuff" is something the Republicans caused.
Because I've watched the news about him running from nearly
the beginning (thanks 2 mom/dad) ~ and he DOES change views!

The President has just as many "Flip Flops"

# Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
# Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
# Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
# Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
# Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
# Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
# Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.
# Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.
# Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
# Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.
# Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.
# Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
# Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
# Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote
# Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.
# Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

There are more, but I believe you get the idea. I can also refute that whole "I voted before it, before I voted against it" nonsense as well as voting for the war, then voting against it. If you are interested, I will explain.

Also, he doesn't support abortion, but I did read somewhere that
he supposedly does for rape cases (which I'm against).

To me, abortion is nothing but state-approved murder. Okay, so they/her
[parent(s)] can't support the child; why not wait it out and put the child
up for adoption? etc. It saves one life, and everyone is happy for the most part.

Well, I respect you for being consistant. I agree, that its either completely wrong in any case or its not, the rest is hypocracy. I personally support the right for a woman to have an abortion. An important question is, do feel comfortable FORCING a woman to carry a child she doesn't want for 9 months. Also, what do you do if she does get an abortion. Do you throw her in jail? Is invitro-fertilization murder? The extra embryo's are usually destroyed after a woman has become pregnant. Is the death penalty "State sponsored murder?" Do you support it? I'm sure you realize a certain percentage of innocent individuals have been put to death in error. Destruction of human life is destruction, no matter how you slice it.

As for everyone being happy for the most part...I can't speak for a woman who was been brutally raped, being forced to carry the product of that rape. I think it would drive some insane.

Please do list; I'd like to know all in the Bush administrator who have
not served; can you provide the same for Kerry's camp?

Here is a pretty complete list of those who served, Democrat & Republican. Its pretty telling that those who are screaming support for this war have little or no military time

LINK

Perhaps so; but I find Kerry's changing views to not
be something I want to put my fainth into.

Firsted started to run: We'll pull out of Iraq!
Now he's running: We'll get the support our troops need and stay in Iraq!

I remember it, if you think back to when he first
started running, you'll remember to.

I challenge you to find the quote.
I have NEVER heard Kerry say we would just pull out. I have heard him say that if he is able to bring support in from other countries, and things start to go well, we may be able to bring some troops home in 6 months.

[Jim]

Buddha
I happen to agree with everything said. My big problem? The current President has failed to veto a single spending bill in four years, not one. Plus, I believe this is the only time in american history, perhaps world history, where a tax cut was given during war time. I don't see any of the above being corrected by the current administration. It doesn't make my choice very difficult.

[Jonathan]

The President has just as many "Flip Flops"

# Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
# Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
# Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
# Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
# Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
# Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
# Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.
# Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.
# Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
# Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.
# Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.
# Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
# Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
# Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote
# Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.
# Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

There are more, but I believe you get the idea. I can also refute that whole "I voted before it, before I voted against it" nonsense as well as voting for the war, then voting against it. If you are interested, I will explain.

No, I know the truth behind the "I voted for it, before I voted against it".
Something bout the cost made him switch his mind.

Well, I respect you for being consistant. I agree, that its either completely wrong in any case or its not, the rest is hypocracy. I personally support the right for a woman to have an abortion. An important question is, do feel comfortable FORCING a woman to carry a child she doesn't want for 9 months. Also, what do you do if she does get an abortion. Do you throw her in jail? Is invitro-fertilization murder? The extra embryo's are usually destroyed after a woman has become pregnant. Is the death penalty "State sponsored murder?" Do you support it? I'm sure you realize a certain percentage of innocent individuals have been put to death in error. Destruction of human life is destruction, no matter how you slice it.

As for everyone being happy for the most part...I can't speak for a woman who was been brutally raped, being forced to carry the product of that rape. I think it would drive some insane.

I'm not sure; I'm not a lawyer, so I can't talk about the penalty.
Do I feel comfortable forcing a woman? Well, something to consider.
Is the death penalty? No; thats punishment, for a crime so hidious as to require death.
Yes I do realize that.

Here is a pretty complete list of those who served, Democrat & Republican. Its pretty telling that those who are screaming support for this war have little or no military time

LINK

I challenge you to find the quote.
I have NEVER heard Kerry say we would just pull out. I have heard him say that if he is able to bring support in from other countries, and things start to go well, we may be able to bring some troops home in 6 months.

Is this source good enough? Its from a Austrailian site, so its not tainted by American bias I'd say.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/20/1084917700351.html?oneclick=true

[Frank Hagan]

Jonathan, one thing about the sources you are given: they are partisan. So they will give enough of the story to prove their point, but not enough to give you the full story.

As an example, most of the "flip-flops" that are given for Bush, such as not supporting a 9/11 commission, were negotiating positions to help ensure that the commission was not structured in a way that would harm the war effort. Once the people pushing for something agree to structure it a certain way, the opposition is removed. That really isn't a flip flop; the original thing they opposed doesn't exist now, because they won.

I'm sure some of Kerry's "flip flops" are the same way. But the partisans won't tell you that.

There's a lot of polarization out there, and a lot of demonizing of men who have served their country either as senators or governors. It belittles us all. We have a wonderful history and tradition of people who have tried their very best to serve us.

I disagree with John Kerry because I think his prior positions ... some of which I shared ... were historically wrong. He still holds those positions. He still feels that we need to have the majority of the world supporting us before we take any action. Its one of his core beliefs. My reading of history is that those times are very rare that the rest of the world will agree with us, and often don't happen when they need to happen. The one time in your life when it DID happen, when nearly all the world was behind us was the first gulf war, and John Kerry voted against it.

[Buddha]

Buddha
I happen to agree with everything said.

That so seldom happen I just had to put that into quotes all by itself.

My big problem? The current President has failed to veto a single spending bill in four years, not one. Plus, I believe this is the only time in american history, perhaps world history, where a tax cut was given during war time. I don't see any of the above being corrected by the current administration. It doesn't make my choice very difficult.

IMO neither Bush nor Kerry is going to make a big difference when it come to the economy. My reasoning is simple, the economic problem is huge, exerting it own force, the economics of the situation will force action - right or wrong - change will happen no matter who is in office. However, whoever is president is in for one hell of ride.

I don't think either Bush or Kerry fully realize the extent of economic trouble facing the nation. Personally, I wish I never picked up my calculator. I think this election has failed to even inform the people of the problems we face. Nor has the problems even been discussed. Elections are when we the people are suppose to exercise our freedom of speech to determine the direction of our country. In a way, I feel our freedom of speech has been stolen by both the republican and democratic parties. Elections have become orchestrated events with no substance. JMO though.

IMO, we need to pick the strongest leader. Forget the past, as they say, "past performance does not guarantee future results." Look at the candidates and ask yourself who is going to protect the future for our children. One nice thing about this election is we have had four years to get to known both Bush and Kerry. Now we just need to deside who will be Captain of the USS Titanic.

Don't forget to VOTE!!

[Buddha]

Jonathan, one thing about the sources you are given: they are partisan. So they will give enough of the story to prove their point, but not enough to give you the full story.

I too would like to encourage Jonathan to always seek the full story. Let critical thinking seperate the facts from opinions of others. Don't blindly follow the prevailing rhetoric but questions it. Seek the truth and form your own opinions.

Theodore Roosevelt:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

[Jonathan]

good quote there Buddha.
I do try to seek the full story, which I rarely have to go far.

Seems my dad gets alot of the "low down" as he calls it,
talking to other truck drivers out on the road, or maybe
on the radio ~ who knows, he never says

Both my parents provide insite to the failures of Bush,
as well as Kerry's downfalls and horrible attempt to appear as "the common man"

Other times, I'm content to stick to the Republican side,
which is rarely the 100% truth (note, rare not impossible to find)

[Frank Hagan]

I've been both a Democrat and a Republican, but mostly a Republican (I registered to vote right after Watergate, and was sickened by the actions of the Republican party). After I evaluated the basic positions of both parties, I decided I was closer to the Republicans than to the Democrats, although I rarely agree with all the platform "planks" either party puts out.

I'm more of a libertarian Republican.

[Buddha]

When I first registered, I left the party box blank and was surprised when my registration card came with a little "R". I fixed that mistake the same day the card arrived. What I haven't been able to fix is those damn republicans! They still think I'm one of them! Damn them and their all inclusive party!! Bet if my card showed up with a little "D" someone from the DNC would've showed up to burn my card right there in front of me! And I would never have to worry about hearing from them again. Been getting about three calls a night from the republicans.

Five more days to peace and quiet. Don't forget to vote.

[Jonathan]

we haven't had any republican/democratic calls here
I guess they don't kare bout us getting to the polls

But I got that taken care of

[Frank Hagan]

The "battleground states" are getting most of the attention. We really don't have a national election, we have 50 state elections, and the ones in play are the ones where the activity is happening. It doesn't make sense for President Bush to go to California, because he'll never win there. And Kerry isn't going to spend any time in one of the solidly Bush states either.

There's a pretty good site that lists all the polls ... http://www.realclearpolitics.com ... and has links to great columns by partisans of both sides of the aisle.

They "average" the national polls, and while they have shown Bush to lead by 2 - 3 points over the last few weeks, historically the poll data is simply not reliable when the margin is that close. It could go either way.

I have already voted by absentee, because I'm in Kona Hawai'i this week and next. By the time I start looking at the returns on next Tuesday night, it will already be decided!