Recommended solution for site suspended.

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  • george
    Member
    • Apr 2005
    • 32

    #1

    Recommended solution for site suspended.

    Recently I visited webhostingtalk and there's some clients of Dathorn complaining about site been suspended. I understand resellers like to have a 'safe' business to avoid critical problems, and don't want to see their clients' site suspended.

    In fact technically, it is easy to be safer using Dathorn's service.

    Because Dathorn will only suspend the problematic account, so my suggestion is, to make your clients' sites safer, give them two accounts.

    Someone will ask how could I give them two accounts? Most of clients have only one domain one site, one domain means one account, isn't it?

    I surely tell you, you could give them two or more accounts even they have only one domain. Suppose your client's domain is: mydomain.com

    You create two accounts for him,
    first account: mydomain domain: mydomain.com
    secondary account: mydomainbeta domain: beta.mydomain.com

    You might be confused, how could I set a subdomain in the same hosting server? Truely yes, you can do that without any problem in Dathorn.

    And then, you should tell your client, put all safe contents in main account, like static pages, images, common-in-use CGI programs(they're safe), of course another one important, their e-mail accounts. You client's main account will never be suspended (except your clients donot understand what's safe)

    What's for secondary account? It's 'to be suspended'. Of course, leave 'unsafe' contents especially some programs with database in beta or experimental, they could be safe, but even you tested in your own environment, their might also have problems (very) occasionally. We don't wish that happen of course, for each time when site suspended happens your other clients and neighbours in that server will be hurted (before Andrew suspend that account).

    George
    Flash platform services
    iGPS.ca
    map.igps.ca
  • Buddha
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2004
    • 825

    #2
    The sub-domains should be created through the WHM not cPanel in order to create separate accounts - just to make that clear.

    Large site do this sort of thing all the time. I think it's good idea.
    "Whatcha mean I shouldn't be rude to my clients?! If you want polite then there will be a substantial fee increase." - Buddha

    Comment

    • Elite
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2004
      • 168

      #3
      Nice idea to minimise the pain of suspension - however, I would be happier if no one ran untested code on the shared servers... - I know I have always been very careful about this and as a result have never had a suspension

      Having said the above, I'm sure I've tempted fate and can expect my first suspension in the near future(!)

      Comment

      • george
        Member
        • Apr 2005
        • 32

        #4
        Originally posted by Elite
        Nice idea to minimise the pain of suspension - however, I would be happier if no one ran untested code on the shared servers... - I know I have always been very careful about this and as a result have never had a suspension

        Having said the above, I'm sure I've tempted fate and can expect my first suspension in the near future(!)
        Me too. Tempted fate something happen afternoon if I announced in the morning it wouldn't happen.

        Sometime maybe because of time limitation, mistakes could happen even as if it 'never'. Whatever it's better to have a solution on most of possibilities so you could sleep better.
        Flash platform services
        iGPS.ca
        map.igps.ca

        Comment

        • pitu
          Junior Member
          • Apr 2004
          • 24

          #5
          Sometime maybe because of time limitation, mistakes could happen even as if it 'never'. Whatever it's better to have a solution on most of possibilities so you could sleep better.
          assuming that having a solution on most of possibilities does leave you some spare time to actually sleep

          Comment

          • Virt
            Junior Member
            • Sep 2004
            • 7

            #6
            This does not really seem like a good idea to me. Also, does not mix well with most online billing systems.

            Lastly, what kind of message does this REALLY give to your clients - "Host important stuff in one account, stuff that might get you suspended in the other account, because I have no control..."

            Keep in mind that yesterdays "safe" code was also yesterdays safest patch out and is also todays "unsafe" code...You never know when this will change.

            Considering that the words safe and unsafe change moment by moment, you simply have no clue as to when your safe code becomes unsafe...If Andrew sees fit to pull it, he will...

            Comment

            • Grunfeld
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2004
              • 209

              #7
              Ok so you looked around on WHT a couple of questions for you ..

              How many good things did you see about Dathorn...???

              How many poor ratings did Dathorn have ...???

              Ask anybody here that has been here for more than 3 months and I think you will find happy customers I have been here for over 3 years and I have no plans on moving.... however I know the rules and respect the rules...
              If you think you are going to go over with an account then you can do a few things.... go to a larger reseller account for more traffic...... get a dedicated box that you control....or try another reseller ( I suspect you will not find any better than Dathorn but then again you might.

              IMO Andrew is more than fair and expects YOU to take respnsibility for your business and that includes software as well... nothing more nothing less....

              pretty fair ...
              Cheers,

              Gary
              (This space for rent)

              Comment

              • george
                Member
                • Apr 2005
                • 32

                #8
                Originally posted by Virt
                This does not really seem like a good idea to me. Also, does not mix well with most online billing systems.

                Lastly, what kind of message does this REALLY give to your clients - "Host important stuff in one account, stuff that might get you suspended in the other account, because I have no control..."

                Keep in mind that yesterdays "safe" code was also yesterdays safest patch out and is also todays "unsafe" code...You never know when this will change.

                Considering that the words safe and unsafe change moment by moment, you simply have no clue as to when your safe code becomes unsafe...If Andrew sees fit to pull it, he will...
                Safe or unsafe, it's all from eyes yourself. Everything has risks, you should know them and have your own risk management. You like hiking, but you know somebody died on hiking, do you think you'd rather stay home?

                So, if you have no confidence on coding and want to be 100% safe (supposed a completist), ok, leave all your applications with dynamic code and database in the 'unsafe' account, leave only images, htmls, and mails in the box of 'safe'. I totally wonder if Andrew will have any second to pull your 'safe' box out.
                Flash platform services
                iGPS.ca
                map.igps.ca

                Comment

                • Virt
                  Junior Member
                  • Sep 2004
                  • 7

                  #9
                  Originally posted by george
                  Safe or unsafe, it's all from eyes yourself. Everything has risks, you should know them and have your own risk management. You like hiking, but you know somebody died on hiking, do you think you'd rather stay home?
                  Of course not, a hiking I go, but I do keep in mind what killed my friend and how it exactly happened - I tell others along the way as well...

                  Originally posted by george
                  So, if you have no confidence on coding and want to be 100% safe (supposed a completist), ok, leave all your applications with dynamic code and database in the 'unsafe' account, leave only images, htmls, and mails in the box of 'safe'. I totally wonder if Andrew will have any second to pull your 'safe' box out.
                  I agree with you partially - for a personal web site, this may not be a bad idea. From a resellers standpoint, I just do not see it.

                  How about this scenario:

                  A local portal website hosted for just over 3 years using PHP-Nuke and an assortment of modules with over 1000 subscribed members. One day the spider YahooSeeker comes along out of the blue to grab photos from the Gallery module (for its Yahoo shopping site - even though this site only has old, local area photos - nothing at all for sale - the photos are from area places from upwards of 100 years ago) and suddenly causes over 75 sleeping processes in the course of roughly an hour. Even though the attraction to the site was just a spider suddenly pulling from the latest version of Gallery (just updated to the very latest version just 1 week prior), Andrew suspends the site completely.

                  This just happened to me here on a personal site that I have been running for the last three years.

                  Risk management says to monitor and update the site and modules - that I did. The logs show where the activity went to. In fact, I was updating the site with minor changes the moment it went down.

                  Since the images were a part of the Gallery module, they were hosted within the nuke modules directory itself, nuke is PHP based - so there is no html to host, and I do not use email on the account at all. A pretty basic site with the exception of using PHP and MySql.

                  How else could I have prepared myself for such an event?

                  Comment

                  • Virt
                    Junior Member
                    • Sep 2004
                    • 7

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Grunfeld
                    Ok so you looked around on WHT a couple of questions for you ..

                    How many good things did you see about Dathorn...???

                    How many poor ratings did Dathorn have ...???

                    Ask anybody here that has been here for more than 3 months and I think you will find happy customers I have been here for over 3 years and I have no plans on moving.... however I know the rules and respect the rules...
                    If you think you are going to go over with an account then you can do a few things.... go to a larger reseller account for more traffic...... get a dedicated box that you control....or try another reseller ( I suspect you will not find any better than Dathorn but then again you might.

                    IMO Andrew is more than fair and expects YOU to take respnsibility for your business and that includes software as well... nothing more nothing less....

                    pretty fair ...
                    I think you misunderstood the post, its not about going over on bandwidth or space usage, but more on the lines of the fear of having a site suddenly shut down due to a script running. In my case, it was due to numerous sleeping processes suddenly caused by a Yahoo bot.

                    Comment

                    • Virt
                      Junior Member
                      • Sep 2004
                      • 7

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Elite
                      Nice idea to minimise the pain of suspension - however, I would be happier if no one ran untested code on the shared servers... - I know I have always been very careful about this and as a result have never had a suspension

                      Having said the above, I'm sure I've tempted fate and can expect my first suspension in the near future(!)
                      How exactly would you define "untested code" and what exactly would you be worried about?

                      It would seem to me that tested popular code would be more damaging than any "untested code" since more people are aware of it and its flaws.

                      Comment

                      • george
                        Member
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 32

                        #12
                        There's not everything on your control. You should accept some bad situation happen to you. A couple months before a guy with a well-known website, once a day his address was digged and flooded soon the next day, his hosting provider have to remove him out immediately! Every day there're many cars crashed and men killed, you have to accept it. Microsoft also have to accept DDOS attacks or mass of download. You should accept bad situation, it's not your fault, not Dathorn's fault, not your neighbours' fault, and you should know you have to lose something in some bad situations. That's the life, that's the business.

                        What I suggested here, is only to reduce some pains when those happen to you. You should have another account to tell your subscribed members what happen on that worst situation, maybe only 'we are sorry our gallery was turned off because ...', but not to save your gallary from suspended.

                        Originally posted by Virt
                        Of course not, a hiking I go, but I do keep in mind what killed my friend and how it exactly happened - I tell others along the way as well...

                        I agree with you partially - for a personal web site, this may not be a bad idea. From a resellers standpoint, I just do not see it.

                        How about this scenario:

                        A local portal website hosted for just over 3 years using PHP-Nuke and an assortment of modules with over 1000 subscribed members. One day the spider YahooSeeker comes along out of the blue to grab photos from the Gallery module (for its Yahoo shopping site - even though this site only has old, local area photos - nothing at all for sale - the photos are from area places from upwards of 100 years ago) and suddenly causes over 75 sleeping processes in the course of roughly an hour. Even though the attraction to the site was just a spider suddenly pulling from the latest version of Gallery (just updated to the very latest version just 1 week prior), Andrew suspends the site completely.

                        This just happened to me here on a personal site that I have been running for the last three years.

                        Risk management says to monitor and update the site and modules - that I did. The logs show where the activity went to. In fact, I was updating the site with minor changes the moment it went down.

                        Since the images were a part of the Gallery module, they were hosted within the nuke modules directory itself, nuke is PHP based - so there is no html to host, and I do not use email on the account at all. A pretty basic site with the exception of using PHP and MySql.

                        How else could I have prepared myself for such an event?
                        Flash platform services
                        iGPS.ca
                        map.igps.ca

                        Comment

                        • Elite
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2004
                          • 168

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Virt
                          How exactly would you define "untested code" and what exactly would you be worried about?

                          It would seem to me that tested popular code would be more damaging than any "untested code" since more people are aware of it and its flaws.
                          I think george defined this in his original post:

                          What's for secondary account? It's 'to be suspended'. Of course, leave 'unsafe' contents especially some programs with database in beta or experimental, they could be safe, but even you tested in your own environment, their might also have problems (very) occasionally. We don't wish that happen of course, for each time when site suspended happens your other clients and neighbours in that server will be hurted (before Andrew suspend that account).
                          The initial post was not about scripts being exploited as you describe in your later post.

                          As I stated I do not do this myself, but I can of course see an advantage of at least having some presence on the net in the event that an account is suspended.

                          Comment

                          • Virt
                            Junior Member
                            • Sep 2004
                            • 7

                            #14
                            Originally posted by george
                            There's not everything on your control. You should accept some bad situation happen to you. A couple months before a guy with a well-known website, once a day his address was digged and flooded soon the next day, his hosting provider have to remove him out immediately! Every day there're many cars crashed and men killed, you have to accept it. Microsoft also have to accept DDOS attacks or mass of download. You should accept bad situation, it's not your fault, not Dathorn's fault, not your neighbours' fault, and you should know you have to lose something in some bad situations. That's the life, that's the business.
                            Oh I agree with you, stuff will happen. What I don't think you see is that in the case I mentioned, Gallery was an internal part of PHP-Nuke. Since they share a database, it is almost impossible to separate the two. That is the point of modules, they go togther.

                            In the case of making two separate accounts joined, this would not have worked at all in this case. They are already joined and must be in order to operate as they do (modules). It seems that you are unaware of how PHP-Nuke actually operates. Also since both were updated to the latest patches, how is anyone to know which will be affected by a "bad situation"?

                            The "bad situation" in this case happened to be a bot that ignores robots.txt and parses Java and then causes a sleep process which then sits idle on the server for a short period of time. Problem here is a "short period of time" is defined by whoever is in charge of such. Many others will tell you sleeping processes are nothing at all to worrry about, others worry. How does one prepare for that? I'd really like to know for future reference.

                            Originally posted by george
                            What I suggested here, is only to reduce some pains when those happen to you. You should have another account to tell your subscribed members what happen on that worst situation, maybe only 'we are sorry our gallery was turned off because ...', but not to save your gallary from suspended.
                            Simply using an outside live DNS source also accomplishes the same trick - as is what I did. Point the domain to another server and simply serve.

                            Problem is the main server that was paid for is now paid for serving nothing...

                            Also, I still have not received any answer as to how you manage to sell this to your potential or existing clients (multiple accounts) as well as how you set up automated billing to handle such.

                            Comment

                            • Virt
                              Junior Member
                              • Sep 2004
                              • 7

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Elite
                              I think george defined this in his original post:



                              The initial post was not about scripts being exploited as you describe in your later post.

                              As I stated I do not do this myself, but I can of course see an advantage of at least having some presence on the net in the event that an account is suspended.
                              I don't think George really covered anything in his original post, thus my asking questions.

                              George talked about "'unsafe' contents" and to me, that means untested, flawed, hacked, or else anything that the server admin(Andrew) deems unfit.

                              Unsafe would seem to also include "exploited". Check the dictionary once...

                              And as described in my later post, the scripts were not exploited but rather abused and then helpd sleeping, since I never disclosed the server location to the script, nor did I have in place what the server script stated that it was actually there looking for and causing sleeping processes for. The host, upon seeing numerous processes sitting there sleeping and using no resources then pulled the site due to numerous resources being used.

                              Think about it once...

                              Originally posted by Elite
                              As I stated I do not do this myself, but I can of course see an advantage of at least having some presence on the net in the event that an account is suspended.
                              I too can see an advantage of this for a personal web host, but not a reseller, nor a dynamic site. I have stated this before... Show me a real world example. How would you actually sell this to a client? How would you actually bill this to a client? I'm just not seeing it.

                              Comment

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